3.13.2010

Oneness Debate: James White vs Robert Sabin

 

5 comments:

Clint Jordan said...

Great debate on behalf of James White; however, Mr. Sabin provided no Biblical argument.

Jesus is God, but to say Jesus is the Father is absolutely ridiculous. The Son/Word pre-existed WITH the Father, you have heard it said, 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.' -- John 1:1-2

This is also emphasized in John 17:5, which states, 'Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.'

The Father did not take the flesh. The pre-incarnate Son (whom is God) took the flesh, as it is written, 'And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.' This same concept is reiterated in John 4:2-3, 'By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ HAS COME IN THE FLESH is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.'

So we can conclude that Jesus Christ, the Son from all Eternity, whom was always with the Father, took the flesh. It is to my understanding that Oneness Theology denies the Eternal existence of Christ, because they view the Person of the Son as a mere creation at Bethlehem. To that, I would like to look at two pieces of Scripture that are commonly misused to prove Jesus as being created, as cited in a previous post of mine:

1.) Firstly, let us look at Colossians 1:15, which states, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation."

According to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, the word 'firstborn' (Greek: prototokos) is an adjective. While in a literal sense, it can denote the first that comes from the womb, but frequently is an expression of supremacy, not chronological order.

Psalms 89:27, God said in regards to David, that He would appoint David to be His 'firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.' Also in Jeremiah 31:9, where Ephraim is called the Lord's 'firstborn,' although, Manasseh was Ephraim's older brother, the 'firstborn' from the womb (Genesis 48:14). In this context, and as shown in Genesis 48:19, as well as Psalms 89:27, the term 'firstborn' is a title of superiority, of supremacy. The term 'firstborn' in Colossians 1:15 does not refer to an actual physical birth, but rather, refers to Christ's position of supremacy. Colossians 1:15 has absolutely nothing to do with Christ being 'created.' Colossians 1:18 goes on to Jesus is 'the beginning.'

Clint Jordan said...

2.) Secondly, let us examine Revelation 3:14-15, which states, “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.’”

‘Beginning’ here, translates from the Greek word ‘arche,’ meaning ‘the origin,’ ‘the active cause,’ ‘that by which anything begins to be,’ ‘leader,’ ‘the person or thing that commences,’ ‘magistracy,’ ‘rule.’ Revelation 3:14 does not in anyway teach that Christ was created. Ironically, it teaches that He is the ‘active cause,’ ‘the origin’ of all creation, that He is the Creator, the source of all things, the Beginning of all things. As Micah 5:2, a Messianic prophecy puts it, ‘But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of ETERNITY.’

To further prove the Eternal existence of Christ, He said in John 8:58, "Truly, truly, I say unto you, before Abraham was born, I am." Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.'" The 'I am' denoted absolute eternal existence, it is a claim to be Yahweh of the Old Testament. The Jews understood the significance of this claim, and it's clear in their reaction, when they picked up stones against Christ. John 10:29-33 also make note of a similar incident, "The Jews answered Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'"

In addition, refer to Isaiah 48:16, which says, “Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”

The speaker in Isaiah 48:16 is obviously God, (refer to verses 11 and 12, “For My Own sake, for My own sake, I will act; For how can My name be profaned? And My glory I will not give to another… I am He, I am the first, I am also the last”), and yet He says He has been sent by God [the Father]. This is clearly in reference to the pre-incarnate Christ. cross reference Isaiah 48:12 with what Christ also said in Revelation 1:17-18, and Revelation 22:12-13, 16 in His claim to be the 'first and the last,' the 'Alpha and the Omega.' Did the Father send Himself, or did He send the Son? Jesus (Father) is going to send Himself (Son), and also send Himself (Holy Spirit) again? How much sense does that make? Absolutely none! With that said, we can further conclude that Jesus is the Eternal Son, and pre-existed with the Eternal Father, along with the Eternal Spirit. God the Father sent God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit – three Persons subsiding in One Godhead. It makes no sense when you say Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Clint Jordan said...

I'd like to know how Oneness Pentecostals view Psalm 45:6-7:

Psalm 45:6-7 (c.f. Hebrews 1:8-10) states, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed You With the oil of joy above Your fellows.' If Jesus is the Father, then does even the God have a god? Absolutely preposterous! Who is able to say there is a god higher than God Himself?

The Trinity does not teach three Gods, rather, as shown above, it seems that Oneness Theology teaches a multiplicity of gods, of even a god higher than God. The Trinity is totally monotheistic, the belief in One God; however, there are three Persons who subside in the Godhead, just as all of Christ's sheep are one in the body of Christ. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.' -- Galatians 3:28

Another way of looking at it is pictured in Mark 10:6-8, which states, ‘But from the beginning of creation, God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh.’

Revelation 5:4-7 states, "Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, 'Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.' And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. AND HE CAME AND TOOK THE BOOK OUT OF THE RIGHT HAND OF HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE.' So let me get this straight, the Lamb, who is Jesus, whom you also proclaim as the Father, is going to take the book out of who’s hands? If Jesus is the Father, who's sitting on the throne?

Clint Jordan said...

When we apply the Doctrine of the Trinity, the questions that I've posed suddenly make sense:

1.) Q: If Jesus is the Father who, on every occasion that He prayed, was He praying to?

A: Well, fact is, Jesus isn't the Father, He is the Eternal Son whom is completely 100% God, and He prayed to the Eternal Father whom is completely 100% God, in Spirit whom is completely 100% God. These three Persons are One in Being, One in Essence, One in the Godhead.

2.) Q: If Jesus is the Father, then does even God have a god ('...Therefore God, YOUR GOD, has anointed You...')?

A: Since Psalm 45:6-7 is speaking of the Eternal Father UNTO the Eternal Son, it all makes sense now -- God the Father speaking of God the Son. The Father does not have a god, and Christ was not formed or created at Bethlehem, but rather, is from all Eternity. Christ said in John 20:17, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" This is all explained with proper knowledge of the Trinity, and the subordination within. Subordination does not mean that Members of the Godhead are not co-equal. Christ is equal to His Father, yet also voluntarily took on a subordinate role, and is shown in the verse above, Philippians 2:5-8, John 4:34, John 5:30, and Hebrews 10:5-10.

3.) Q: What does Genesis 1:26 suggest? Genesis 1:26 says, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’"

A: The terms ‘Us,’ and ‘Our’ are plural, not singular. This is not in reference to angels as some anti-Trinitarians claim, or otherwise, you would be suggesting that angels AND God equally created us, when it is God ALONE who is Creator. The ‘Us,’ and ‘Our’ are in reference to the three Persons of the Godhead. If Christ be the Father, it would read something along the lines, “Then God said, ‘I will make man according to My image, according to My likeness…’” Also see Genesis 3:22, and Genesis 11:7. With these verses in mind, it now crystallizes everything said thus far, that Christ was the Eternal Son and co-existed WITH the Father (John 1:1-2), what it meant when Jesus said, in John 17:5, ‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was,’ what is being said in Isaiah 48:16, and Psalm 45:6-7.

This all can also be seen in the baptism of Christ, as Christ was brought up from the water, and the Spirit of God descended down, and simultaneously, at the same time, a voice out of heaven (God the Father) saying, 'This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.'

The Doctrine of the Trinity isn't Biblical? I beg to differ.

donald said...

The doctrine of the Trinity is a Roman Catholic Myth! You must realize that Jesus has two natures, human and divine. He prayed as a man to his God and Father. In His role as The Son of God (God manifest in the flesh) he had to submit to the Father who was greater than the Son. If Jesus is God the Son as you say, why would he pray in the first place? Since when does "God" have to pray? The Son is not a second person, rather it is a role that God took on in relation to humanity's sin. The Son had a beginning (Galatians 4:4) and the Son will one day have an ending to his role(1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
I've got a question, when you get to heaven how many thrones will you see? Also, Is Jesus in the Godhead or is the Godhead in Jesus?

Adversus Trinitas

"...unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." (John 8:24 ESV)